Hans: Welcome to a Campfire Music Foundation interview. We're out here in Boise, Idaho, for the awesome music conference joined here today by nephew university Steve, one of the hottest duos in the west right now. And we're sitting down for a conversation about how you guys make a work. Music, economics, exploitation, capitalism, all that fun stuff. But before we get into that, do you guys want to explain what sort of stuff you collaborate on, what sort of stuff you do separately, kind of how you operate together as a duo?
Rusty Steve: Yeah, I guess what we do together is we make music together. I kind of take on the role of instrumentalist and producer and also mix and master our stuff. And then in the live setting, I play guitar. Neptune writes all the lyrics and performs all the vocals, obviously, all the choir arrangements.
Hans: So all the music you release is together?
Rusty: Yeah, for now, I have plans to do a solo project, and N3ptune does as well.
Hans: Awesome. So just to, I guess, get right into it. How is streaming working for you? What are your thoughts on it? Do you make money off of it?
Rusty: No, I'd say in total, I don't know the exact number I've made off of streaming, but it can't be more than, like, $200 in my whole life, I don't think. That could be slightly off, but if I'm off, it's not by much.
N3ptune: I worked at Metadata, so I've been able to do payouts, because when you are distributed, you go to your distribution, you're able to do splits, everything like that, so on and so forth. So I've been able to just, like, here and there, just be able to get by, be able to make money every here and there. Especially, like, doing music full time. When albums do really good or we're on a really good roll out, the streams are, like, a lot higher. I've seen sometimes it's like, 140 something. As little as, like, I felt like United Masters won't let you cash out unless it's, like, of a certain light, you make a certain amount. Luckily, we do steady in streams, so it's been as low as, like, 30 something to as high as, like, 140 something. 140 something is really good, but when you take into account exactly how many times something's getting streamed versus how much you're making per stream, $100 is great for what the model is, but what the model is not beneficial.
Hans: And what the model is that 90% of all streaming goes to the top 1% of artists. Do you rely on streaming at all as a revenue source when you're planning out how to make things work fiscally?
Rusty: No, definitely do not at all. We really account for live show payouts and merch sales pretty much, and we've been lucky to get a few grants as well.
Hans: How much of your time do you spend on your art versus your business, managing your business, managing your brand?
Rusty: Well, we're really lucky. We have a manager and an agent, so they pretty much take care of most of that stuff. We have to do very little when it comes to the management side. Yeah. So basically, mostly focusing on the live shows.
And focusing on, obviously, making the records and writing the songs, producing the songs, mixing the songs, and mastering the songs, which is like a huge undertaking in and of itself.
Hans: What would you like to see different about the way music is valued, specifically recorded music?
Rusty: For me personally? Do you want to answer that first? I've been, like, talking a ton about this question.
Hans: What would you like to see different about the way that our society values recorded music and specifically the way that recorded music is compensated?
N3ptune: Financial transparency and fairness. Because everything is electronic, there's a lot that's able to get swept under the rug and a lot of agreements you say you agree to by going through certain avenues that take away proper compensation for the artist, I. E. You put your life and soul into the music. And the cost you pay for getting that music out to the world is you make a micro penny off of every play. So actually prioritizing the artist, if you take Tidal, for example, a streaming service that is the whole business model for it, was making sure that the artist, one, that the listening experience is by far the best listening experience when you're listening to. For streaming, it has the highest quality streaming, but then also it's artist focused. So Tidal pays for streaming, they pay the most for artists. While it is great, and it's absolutely groundbreaking in that term. Goodness gracious. I remember when I came around, I didn't really know much about it until later on.
While they've made themselves a great competitor amongst the other DSPs, they're still, like artists were able to make money for a long time off physical sales. So in terms of business model has changed in terms of music distribution, and it's coming at the cost of how much artists are taking home at the end of the day, where it further exploits artists and it further makes the phrase starving artists way more true than it should be and more than it has been in prior years. So then artists have to eventually, in turn, do far more work and sacrifice even more in order to do the exact same thing while doing a loGoing after music in the same ways that a lot of people have, and in turn, changing the way the artists go after it and have to think about it.
Rusty: Yeah, something that I would love to see, obviously, that 100%, but I think music nowadays is kind of lacking this tactile way to consume it. We have vinyl still, but that's like, some people do it, some people don't. But I think it'd be dope. I don't know what it would look like exactly, but to have something like a physical thing to see the album and something new, I don't know exactly what it would be, but something that's not CD or vinyl or cassette, but something kind of more analog and kind of figuring out a way to mix the analog and digital and have it be convenient, but also give this tactile experience of listening to the music and tying into what you're saying. You could sell that yourself and not rely on streaming for something like that.
N3ptune: Maybe like a stem player.
Rusty: One thing about vinyl that's so fun is to hang the liner notes on your wall or read all the lyrics and you have them right there. I don't know. I think that's missing, and I feel like people miss it. I really love having actual physical things and not just swiping on the screen. Like, I like physical buttons and I like the physicality of music, and I feel like it'd be dope to have yeah, exactly. It'd be dope to have some kind of heavy duty thing that you could listen to your favorite album on.
Hans: Yeah, totally. I look at a group like y'all who have thousands and thousands, thousands of fans and listeners who are using these apps to listen to your music. They're paying for access to these apps, and they listen to your music, and then you don't even account for it because it's so little. I know that someone like y'all, you should be able to make a living income from your recorded music alone based on how many people are listening to you. If you could rely just on recorded music, what would that do for you in terms of being able to focus more on your art or pursue different creative opportunities that you might not be able to now because of the economics of it.
Rusty: At least for me, I think I would be happier in the way of not totally in the artistic realm, but more in living day to day. I wouldn't be as stressed about money or a place to live, like food, health care, all of that stuff. Exactly. But I think not having to worry about all of that would in turn affect the music in a positive way, I would think. But I don't know. I think there is this weird balance in being an artist where suffering creates the best art, I think. And it's kind of this weird back and forth of, like, does suffering create the best art? Like, do you have to suffer to create the best art? But the best art that I know of came out of intense suffering, so I'm not sure if you need that or not.
Hans: No. Yeah, but you should not suffer because you can't pay rent.
Rusty: Yeah, I agree.
Hans: If you got paid more for streaming, how do you think you respond to that?
N3ptune: If we got paid adequately, appropriately as we should? I think, like most artists, it would allow the opportunity to be able to focus on music more other than having to. I've never been the type to let other people handle things for me, obviously, I like knowing how things run, how they're working. If I don't know something, tell me something. I know how that works because I'm going to be a mogul myself one day, and I want to know how that works. So if I know how to do that job and when I hire someone to do that job, they score, not that job, I know how to, you.Know what I'm saying?
Get everything together. In that sense, I'd be able to focus more on the creative process and myself. I'm passionate about the creative process, but then also the business side of everything. Yes, there's music, but it's the music business. I've always been very fascinated with the administrative side of things. So then I think, at least for myself, it make balancing that a lot more. So when it's time to focus on creativity, I can focus on creativity and have the cushion to be able to focus on that and be able to focus on music. And then when it's time to do the administrative work, have those meetings, project manage it as I already do, it would make that a whole lot better. Without having the hanging.
Rusty: Yeah. Having to go back and forth between a job, I don't know at least for me, going back and forth between a job and then the music is just like a lot to handle and go back and forth in between because they're so different. Yeah, I know N3ptune does too.
N3ptune: At least like past two and a half years. I took that leap of doing music full time. So I know for myself it would really not having the dangling thing of like, how much money do I have this month, it would definitely eliminate that.
Hans: Of course. You are so successful. It's not like you have feelings built your entire career and you have people who care about you.
N3ptune: And that is another thing of how you measure success as well. Because when people hear success, they always think money isn't. I can't blame this capitalism. So I think a lot of, by default, everybody thinks money without thinking. I think Drake made a very good point at the Grammy's one year where he was saying, if you have people in your hometown who are bumping your music, saying people know your name, you've already made it, and these things are saying everything else is a bonus. I think that is very, like a lot of people, they forget that it really is a privilege having so many people who, month by month, day by day, and show by show are coming out and seeing you and spending day hard on earning money in whatever economy, especially in this one, you know what I'm saying? What's going on?
And so to be able to have that opportunity, even like the position that we're in and position I'm in, I know for myself, I never take that for granted. If anything, I know. I feel like if I'm not in it entirely, I'm like, fuck. I'm not giving everything like I could. But then I have to remember we're all human and artists are human at the end of the day. But I know for a fact, I know any artist could say that if streaming was paying as they should be paying because my mentors have a good point. If you have 100 fans, you can get every fan to pay $100. Let's say you have 1000 fans, you're able to get those thousand fans to pay you one dollars a month, every last one of them. That's $1,000 a month.
So if you can get - If you have, well, that's where the one dollars is like, okay, well, if you sell the merch of those things.You can get them to do that a month.In these little ways, you can always think outside the box. You know what I'm saying? Then that's a way that you can self sustain and be able to navigate a whole lot more. And also connect with people, which is, I mean, it's music. You're in it to connect.
Hans: It's a privilege to create art, but unfortunately, our love for art is exploited because we'll do it for free. We'll keep doing it, too.
Rusty: I think it's interesting, too, because music is not always - I think a lot of people who don't take music super seriously think it's kind of just like all fun. It's like this thing that. It's like your hobby kind of thing, where it's always fun and it doesn't always feel like work, but when you take it really seriously, you struggle through certain days of working on music, and it sometimes does really feel like a job. And it can be extremely frustrating. And it takes a lot out of you to do music at a certain level. And I think some people might not understand that.
Hans: I think a lot of misconception among our generation, lots of generations, is that when you pay $10 a month, Spotify or whatever, it's going to the artists you listen to. And a lot of people look at their favorite artists and assume that they're not, necessarily that they're wealthy, but at least not struggling to pay rent.
N3ptune: If it's shiny, then the person's rich. It's the mentality of if it's shiny, then it's rich. Without taking into account they don't know what's going on behind the scenes or what it takes to get that. And a lot of people say, will say that exact statement without explaining certain things, with having the business meeting going over finances.
Okay, we're going to do a campaign for a single. This is how much we have and this is our budget. So we need to spend it in this way, this way, this way, this way. Okay. We also have to film a video. We also have to perform this song. We have to bring in dancers. We have to bring in a dj. Okay. If you want to go bigger and you want to bring in lighting and you want to bring in visuals, that person has to get paid as well. That's a flat rate, those dancers, flat rate dj, flat rate. There's percentages that you have to split between. You have an agent, you have a manager, and then door split.
And if you're doing finances for an entire year or an entire album cycle, and then they'll let you have two on top of that. Those are constant, like finance meetings, administrative meetings, and just there's so much setting up where when there is money involved. When you're taking it is your job. You know what I'm saying? It is your job. Can you still do work? Are you devoting yourself? Are you just expecting handouts left and right simply because you either opened your mouth to sing or because you pressed the button, oh, yeah, somebody moved to it. No. Do you still, can you do a job at the end of the day?
Hans: And I think being a musician and building an audience etc. will always require doing work. It should. You're not going to make that as an artist ever just by shaking handouts. But that means that you shouldn't have to work your ass off, be successful and not get anything in return, not be able to pay rent, etc.
N3ptune: Exactly. And it's also a matter of knowing how to exert that energy and where to exert their energy. I think one thing we hear so much is hard work. Hard work. And I think that comes from an older generation and not effectively communicating. Not everything is hard work, especially for artists. The hard work belongs on stage, the diligent work belongs behind the scenes. And knowing you have to have the brain capacity and the bandwidth to be able to do all that and conserve that energy and know how to navigate that within yourself. So when it's time to go on that stage, that hard work is right there. Whether that's dancing, are you really just letting it loose and are you able to go back and do it all over again?
Hans: What are the ways that you feel squeezed by the system outside of streaming? What else needs to change besides streaming?
N3ptune: The bigger you get and the more you grow, the more you got to shut up because you don't know who's who and who knows who and who you'll piss off simply because so and so and so and so rub elbows together and because you didn't like your point of view on something, now you are slowly getting blacklisted from certain opportunities. And the question of morality around certain things is now ambiguous for certain people because everybody has their points of views and because we live in a very narcissistic, entitled and vocal society that feels the need to speak on every single thing.
There's a whole belief that we need to give our opinion on every single thing that has bled into the actual industry, whereas I think that's been a thing. But because there is this hyper surveillance now of every single thing in every aspect of an artist's life is commodified and it's content, then in turn, anything you say is now content. So if you say something and you have one little tagline or one sound bite that's out of context now that's being ran with. And don't let you not have the proper training for, like, media or you don't know, some artists, they don't go into this morning media training, which is understandable.
We're artists. Artists are weird, then they're weird ass people never get artist is a weird ass person. Then all of a sudden, certain opportunities can either get smashed or in return, so you can get certain opportunities because you said something. There is a lot more pressure. You have to watch what you say in a lot of your opinions. You have to keep to yourself. No matter how passionate you are about itYour whole career can go. Because you said one thing that people didn't like, which in that moment, absolutely. Good. Because some people why are you platform. But then when it becomes a thing of
Hans: But I also think these platforms, they promote that sort of toxic, incessant, obsessive engagement because that's how you make the most money. They're not there to promote supportive or the most creative or culturally rich social and digital environment.
N3ptune: That engagement only runs up more money for the platforms themselves. Because the more clicks, the more swipes, that's the more revenue they get because their projected sales and their projected metrics are met or exceeded because of certain things. And then you have bots that they initiate that are inciting these things, which then engage conversations of misinformation. We live in a post truth world. The truth is not valid anymore. The truth is not as entertaining as half of it. You tell half of it and put an opinion on the other side of it. Now you have engagement, now you have a conversation.
Rusty: People are only shown what aligns with their beliefs on social media because it gets more clicks. And so then people kind of live in these bubbles of what they think is going on in the world that fits this narrative that they like to click on.
Hans: Yeah, I think the same is true to some degree from a consumer standpoint. Who you recommended on Spotify is partially dictated by record labels. It's modern day payola. Playlists too, the modern version of what they did with radio back in the day.
N3ptune: I think that's a lot of the people that we listen to now ended up getting as big as they did. Because you had the people who were like, yo, I got this kid who has this amazing record, and they're like, okay, but I have somebody that everybody wants to listen to. And you have people like, I'll slide you an extra 15 just to play this cat and see how it goes. And all of a sudden, you had some of the greatest words. So payola is definitely that under the table businesses. I mean, Issa Rae said it best like when she was asked about going into the music industry, she was like, wow, there's like, no rules. And it always changes. Like, people's titles aren't actually what they do. You'll have a title, somebody will have a title. But then they do so many different things that aren't even that title. They do something that pertains to that title, but then they also wear all these different hats, but they go by this one title.
Hans: It's weird, like, the nature of the record industry was that to have access to the music industry, you needed a label that would do the promotion, pressing, booking, etc. for you. Now, you can do all that for yourself, except the money still goes to the big three labels. But I think what you were saying earlier about how systems are commodified as being important. Music is a cultural activity that's been commodified, not a commodity that creates culture.
N3ptune: I think valuing, putting the value back on artists and what they have to offer. If you take the biggest tours of 2023, which was the Eras tour, Taylor Swift and the Renaissance tour, Beyonce, 4.5 billion generated for the economy with the Renaissance tour, and I believe, 5.7 with the Eras tour generated for the economy, this is small businesses getting more revenue. These are towns, small towns that have more people coming through, stopping for gas if they're traveling. You know what I'm saying? This is like more money that's actually been generated. We see like, yes, these are like the biggest stars in the world. Take that away.
This is at the root of it's music. So this is showing that there is value in the artists. And luckily, I mean, both of them, they're at points where they can call their shots, you know what I'm saying? Not everybody has the luxury, you know what I'm saying? But these are people who. These are artists at the end of the day and showing that the power of music and the power in what they do and how it brings people together and it makes people travel near and far, what that can do not only for people, but what that can do for an economy as well. And if we are reshaping or redoing and revamping and bringing in a new model, business model entirely, not even almost, it's necessary because we're seeing what it can do for an actual economy and helping stimulate it, especially post pandemic. That is crazy to see. Fascinating and not crazy in a bad way, but crazy like that needs to be paid more attention to that. Absolutely.
Hans: How do you see your role as an advocate for changing issues that you face in your career and that other artists face? How do you see your music as advocacy for that, but also just what you say in the world?
Rusty: I think about it when we're at a kind of higher level, because right now I don't feel like I have a whole lot of say or influence over anything, really, but at least with more influence. What I would like to do is a lot of things, but one of the things, at least in Denver. Denver has these amazing venues, like some of the best in the country, in my opinion. And a lot like, pretty much all the acts that come through are passing through. There's not really any local acts that play the big venues, but I think it'd be dope to have, let's say you did, like, a huge tour. It'd be dope to have at least one of the support slots be a local band, because for us.The only Reason we got on our first tour was because we were lucky enough to get on a support slot for a bigger artist who was passing through Denver.
N3ptune: Yeah, I would say showcasing myself is advocacy. I always express that I haven't had a blueprint and to this day, I don't have a blueprint. So everything is almost like it's walking by faith and not by sight, you know what I'm saying? And just making those leaps and bounds. Walking by faith and not by sight. Yeah, I see most people, they have a blueprint on how to go rappers, especially, where there's a blueprint. R and B singers, blueprint jam bands, blueprint for what I've done, I haven't had that. And I've had to create avenues, opportunities, and what it means to do what I specifically do in turn, because I haven't had that help, and I didn't have handouts. Performing in places where nobody likes me or having to really get it how I wanted it and how I get it. How you living it for real? I had always said I want to be able to be exactly what I didn't have. So be that blueprint that somebody for any other artist of a different generation wants to be able to walk.
They now have a blueprint and they can get to where they're going so much faster and with, of course, they still got to do the work, but have an avenue, because somebody did that, now they can exceed what I do.
Rusty: Someone to look up to who mirrors them.
N3ptune: A driving force that they're like, if so and so did it, then I can do it. You know what I'm saying? When you're pioneering something that comes with great sacrifice, what that does for another generation, and the knowledge you're able to pass down, you do take a lot of bullets and you make a lot of hard decisions. But in turn, who is able to help and who is able to excel after that? It is transcendent. That's a lot of the goal. So I think a lot of us make very specific decisions and just sometimes very hard sacrifices so that following generations are able to take what I do or anything I was a part of and that my name was on helped elevate or anything to help elevate me in whatever way, shape or form, and have following generations, young black boys and girls. You know what I'm saying?
And those in between be able to have seats at the table, something even just like the summit we're here today. Being asked, an artist like myself.Asked to be part of the conversation, that was not something, that was a thing. Seven years ago, five years ago, for myself, I was fighting to even just be in a room that could fight for a sound check amongst rappers, you know, what I'm saying, that was not that long ago. So I want a lot of just preparing the next generation to be able to exceed. Go through the front door, go through the windows, open up the front door so they can come in and tear that bitch up and revamp.
Hans: Awesome. Well, I think we did a lot. Do you guys have any last closing thoughts?
Rusty: Streaming needs to pay more.
N3ptune: Stream Renaissance, our album. Also stream Beyonce's album Renaissance. Absolutely.
Hans: Love it. And thank you. Thank you all for so much for the chance to do this conversation. And like you're saying fans don't know a lot about these issues. They don't know that you're not getting their money. It's important to have these conversations and I appreciate your time.
N3ptune: Thank you so much.
